NIN, ¿Realmente es para tanto?

Que si Leon, que ya sabemos que pasaste parte de tu infancia y adolescencia leyendo libros de música Industrial y ahora eres una eminencia con el premio príncipe de Asturias en la ciencia Industrial y el Novel y los demás somos unos zopencos que llevamos escuchando esta música desde hace dos días. ¿Te quedas así mas tranquilo?

Por cierto, "demostrar" que dominas mas de un tema, no es escribir tochos de cien lineas con un contenido que se podría resumir en diez, ni repetirte a ti mismo que eres el que mas sabe de nada, con eso solo te convences a ti mismo, por que poner que "so lo sabe todo el mundo que entienda de esto"
no creo que sea un dato muy objetivo, ya que con eso no demuestras nada.

Y dale...

Macho Cromo, lo siento pero estás equivocado, lo mismo que cuando decías que el industrial nada tenía que ver con el punk sólo porque a ti no te gusta el punk, cuando precisamente la música industrial y el punk son casi "hermanos de leche" y nacieron a la vez como ya te dije en su momento, pero como te empeñabas en que el punk es Green Day o que en la música industrial las canciones no duran 3 minutos con melodías y guitarras a lo Ramones, pues ya está, el punk y la música industrial no tenían nada que ver porque tú lo decías, pese a que sea un dato histórico el que los primeros músicos industriales eran punks y que el industrial siempre ha recibido influencia del punk, no necesariamente en aspectos musicales (que también). Y ahora lo mismo, los discos clave de Ministry son el "Twitch", el "The Land Of Rape and Honey" y el "The Mind Is a Terrible Thing To Taste", por encima del "Psalm69" pese a que ése sea su disco de más éxito que les hizo entrar por unos breves instantes en el mainstream y también haya sido enórmemente influyente en posteriores generaciones, sobre todo en el llamado "metal industrial" (cuyos primeros pasos los dio Ministry con sus dos discos anteriores, siendo éste una evolución y simplificación de ese sonido hacia el metal, de ahí que los anteriores sean considerados más importantes para la música industrial al ser los pioneros en la mezcla de géneros y ser los más importantes para el industrial "de verdad" y no para el simple metal de guitarras con cuatro ruiditos que algunos califican como "metal industrial" cuando es simple metal con samples). Esto no es algo que "lo dice Antena3 mientras T5 o La Sexta dicen otra cosa" ni es algo subjetivo, esto es lo que es, un dato que es de sobras conocido ya que ésos fueron los discos que conviertieron a Ministry en los reyes de la música industrial no sólo a nivel yanki sino mundial hasta que NIN lo petaron y se llevaron todos los focos de atención mediática mientras Minstry se hostiaban contínuamente con sus discos post-Psalm o SP se separaban.

Y "Reznor", lo siento pero a mí me da justo la sensación contraria, que eres tú el que sólo se ha escuchado a NIN (los discos antiguos, que los "modesnos" ya te encargas de recordarnos cada 3 días lo malos que son... para ti) o los últimos de Ministry (los peores que para ti son la maegarepolla). Yo de sobras ha demostrado que controlo más del tema que cualquiera en este foro incluyéndote a ti y a Cromo, cualquiera que sepa leer y sepa un mínimo de todo esto sabe que tengo la absoluta razón, la pena es que en este foro parece que no hay mucha peña que controle del tema y que los que creen que controlan sois vosotros dos, que no dudo que sepáis bastante pero que os equivocáis en cosas que son clave y que sabe cualquiera con un mínimo conocimiento sobre estas bandas.

pues sinceramente y con todos mis respetos a mi me parece que no tienes ni puta idea, que lo único que conoces es Rob Zombie, NIN, Manson y algo de Throbbing Gristle y gracias al Wiki.

Esta claro que no has pisado un concierto y un festival industrial en tu vida.

Hay vida más allá chavalote.

pues sinceramente y con todos mis respetos a mi me parece que no tienes ni puta idea, que lo único que conoces es Rob Zombie, NIN, Manson y algo de Throbbing Gristle y gracias al Wiki.

Yo no tengo ni puta idea. Está claro que tú has demostrado saber muchíiiisimo más, sólo porque tú lo dices claro, porque lo único que te he leído ha sido decir las chorradas de que sin Skinny Puppy NIN no serían nada y que se merecen mucho más reconocimiento que NIN y que "Ministry antes de endurecer sus guitarras eran uno pobres mataos" (primero una burrada y luego una burrada al cubo de alguien que dice saber algo sobre este tipo de música), en base a eso está claro que tú controlas mucho más, mientras que todo lo que yo he dicho que es información pura y dura que conozco desde antes de que existiese wikipedia más todo lo que he rajado sobre este tipo de música durante estos 2 últimos años demostrando que sé más de todo esto que todos los miembros de este foro juntos sólo es mierda que he copiado de wikipedia... ¿Por qué? Porque tú lo dices, y ya está. No habéis dado ni un sólo argumento mínimamente válido que pruebe que me haya equivocado en absolutamente nada ni os habéis molestado en "copiar de Wikipedia" absolútamente nada que me pueda hacer pensar que tengas la más mínima idea de nada.

Pero yo no sé nada y vosotros lo sabéis todo. No dais ni una sóla prueba que avale lo que decís porque no decís nada excepto que me equivoco cuando no es así y sé más de cualquiera de estas bandas que cualquiera de este foro como he venido demostrando por activa y por pasiva desde que me registré (todo siempre copiado de Wikipedia, pero a ver si cuando me acusáis de "copiar de wikipedia" os molestáis en indicar qué partes y lo probáis, porque yo puedo decir que tú copias lo que dices del Libro de Petete ya que no he leído absolútamente nada escrito por ti que me haga pensar que tengas razón en nada, ya que lo único que te he leído fue la chorrada de SP y NIN y decir que no tengo ni idea pese a que tengo mil veces más idea que tú y el resto del foro juntos).

Ahora, si eres tan amable, dime en qué de todo lo que he dicho en este hilo me he equivocado y demuéstralo, porque yo me he hartado de dar datos y vosotros no habéis dicho absolutamente nada que no sea lo que equivocádamente creéis demostrando que realmente no tenéis ni flowers.

¿Pero tu que pruebas das de lo que dices? "Esto es así por que yo lo he leído en la única fuente fiable y punto", esas son todas las pruebas que tu das.

¿Pero tu que pruebas das de lo que dices? "Esto es así por que yo lo he leído en la única fuente fiable y punto", esas son todas las pruebas que tu das.

¿Pruebas de qué? ¿De cosas que sabe todo el mundo como el qué es industrial y el qué no lo es? ¿O cuáles son los discos claves de Ministry? ¿O que la música industrial surgió a la vez que el punk y es casi una ramificación del mismo?

Ésas son cosas que las sabe cualquiera con un mínimo de conocimiento del género, no es mi problema que algunos os emperréis en conocer mil minibandas de pseudoindustrial cutre y no os sepáis la historia de dicho género, es como si me dices que te encanta el punk y me das mil nombres de bandas de punk "andergraund" que en realidad es emo del malo y pseudocopias cutres de My Chemical Romance o Green Day y luego no tienes ni idea de los Pistols, los Ramones, los Clash, los Black Flag, los Dead Kennedys, los Damned, los Misfits, los Bad Religion, Husker Du, Bad Brains, Agnostic Front, etc, ni de sus predecesores como puedan ser MC5, The Stooges, The Sonics o los mismísimos The Who. Vamos, que no sepáis cosas clave del género ni de sus principales bandas a lo largo de su historia, lo cual queda claro cuando uno suelta que "Ministry antes de endurecer sus guitarras eran uno pobres mataos" y que NIN le deben todo a Skinny Puppy (shit) y sus discos clave son los últimos (Reznor, el del foro) o que el género industrial nunca jamás ha tenido absolútamente nada que ver con el punk ni de lejos porque odias el punk (en este caso ya sabes quién lo dijo ).

Yo ya llevo 2 años rajando de NIN y de Manson y de todas las bandas que les han influenciuado entre las que se encuentran mil bandas industriales de las que también me he hartado de hablar. He descrito al detalle, por arriba y por abajo, por la izquierda y por la derecha, todo lo que es necesario saber sobre este género y sus bandas clave a lo largo de todo el tiempo que llevo en este foro, demostrando de sobras que controlo más de todo esto que lo que haya podido demostrar cualquier otro forero, sólo hay que releerse este mismo post/hilo y cualquiera con un mínimo de sentido común y conocimiento podrá apreciar quién ha aportado más datos y más argumentos factibles y basados en la realidad y quiénes han soltado más burradas demostrando un desconocimiento total.

Y si en algo creéis que me equivoco ahí tenéis a vuestro amigo Google para contrastar si todo lo que he dicho es cierto o no, y vosotros podéis contrastarlo fácilmente porque todo lo que he dicho es cierto y fácilmente contrastable (lo que no voy es a ponerme ahora a buscaros las cosas para que me salgáis con que "vuestras fuentes" dicen lo contrario o que "lo único que sé lo sé porque lo dice Wikipedia", que de paso diré que si como decís todo lo que yo digo también lo dice Wikipedia, que no lo sé porque yo todo esto lo sé desde los 90 cuando la Wiki ni existía, pues será por algo, porque yo lo poco que vosotros soltáis no lo he visto nunca en ninguna parte ).

http://googlemofo.ytmnd.com/

¿Pero tu que pruebas das de lo que dices? "Esto es así por que yo lo he leído en la única fuente fiable y punto", esas son todas las pruebas que tu das.

¿Pruebas de qué? ¿De cosas que sabe todo el mundo como el qué es industrial y el qué no lo es? ¿O cuáles son los discos claves de Ministry? ¿O que la música industrial surgió a la vez que el punk y es casi una ramificación del mismo?

Y tu insistes en que son "cosas que sabe todo el mundo", ¿Quien es todo el mundo?, por que si aquí somos cuatro los que hablamos del tema y solo tu tienes esos datos, ya que los demás no los tenemos y no me hables de los años que llevas hablando de esto, te repito que repetir una mentira no la hace mas verdad, por ejemplo en lo del Punk y el Industrial, su única relación es en la ideología del hazlo tu mismo, pero a nivel musical a poco oído que tengas la relación es mínima. Y si es por tiempo te recuerdo que yo soy mas mayor que tu y llevo escuchando esta música desde que nació y no por eso me las doy de saber mas, cosa que tu si haces.

La verdad es que cada vez que leo sobre industrial, me entra la risa... porque es un genero tan amplio que cualquier cosa entra practicamente.

Ejemplo

Front line assembly
ministry
rammstein
fear factory
prong
static-x
nine inch nails
kovenant
Ktulu
freak XXI
Mortiis
Filter
...

Son estilos diferentes dentro del industrial, asique que es el industrial para la gente de este foro?? o cual es la esencia de este genero para que un grupo pertenezca o no??

Eso preguntaselo a León "el enciclopedia" , que según el ninguno de los que has nombrados son Industriales ni derivados del Industrial, son cualquier estilo de música con algunas maquinitas.

http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Industrial_music

Industrial music is a loose term for a number of different styles of electronic and experimental music. First used in the mid 1970s to describe the then-unique sound of Industrial Records artists, a wide variety of artists and labels have since come to be represented under the "industrial music" umbrella. Depending on who you ask, this definition may include European Avant-garde performance artists Throbbing Gristle and Einstürzende Neubauten, American rock bands Ministry and Nine Inch Nails, Canadian electronic acts Skinny Puppy and Front Line Assembly, or writer William S. Burroughs.

The term was meant by its creators to evoke the idea of music created for a new generation of people, previous music being more agricultural. Specifically, it referred to the streamlined process by which the music was being made, although many people later interpreted the word as a poetic reference to an "industrial" aesthetic, recalling factories and inhuman machinery. On this topic, Peter Christopherson of Industrial Records once remarked, "the original idea of Industrial Records was to reject what the growing industry was telling you at the time what music was supposed to be."

History


Early influences

Luigi Russolo's 1913 work The Art of Noises is often cited as the first example of the industrial philosophy in modern music. After Russolo's musica futurista came Pierre Schaeffer and musique concrète, and this gave rise to early industrial music, which was made by manipulating cut sections of recording tape, and adding very early sound output from analog electronics devices.

Also important in the development of the genre was the Dada art movement, which attempted to create art out of household objects, and later the Fluxus art movement.


Industrial Records

Industrial Music was originally coined by Monte Cazazza as the strapline for the record label Industrial Records (founded by British art-provocateurs Throbbing Gristle, the musical offshoot of performance art group COUM Transmissions), but soon evolved through the artistic endeavors of projects like Psychic TV or Skinny Puppy. The original Industrial Records artists have very little musical connection with most modern industrial music.

Although it was contemporary to punk rock in the mid-to-late 1970s (such as the Sex Pistols), industrial music was harder hitting, conceptual, thought-provoking and seen as more "difficult" (being at its root an experimental genre, not rock-based music). Whilst punk's revolution was to boil rock music down to three chords on a guitar, industrial's rebellion against the music industry refused the need to know how to play any chords at all. Early industrial performances would often involve taboo-breaking, provocative elements, such as self-mutilation, pornography, sado-masochistic elements and totalitarian symbolism.

The first wave of this music appeared in 1977 with Throbbing Gristle and NON, and often featured tape editing, stark percussion, and loops distorted to the point where they had degraded to harsh noise. Vocals were sporadic, and were as likely to be bubblegum pop as they were to be abrasive polemics.

Bands like Cabaret Voltaire, Clock DVA, Factrix and SPK soon followed. Blending electronic synthesisers, guitars and early samplers, these bands created an aggressive and abrasive music fusing elements of rock with experimental electronic music. Like their punk cousins, they enjoyed the use of shock-tactics including explicit lyrical content, graphic art and Fascist imagery. Industrial Records enjoyed a fair amount of controversy after using an image of a gas chamber as its logo.

Across the Atlantic, similar experiments were taking place. In San Francisco, shock/performance artist Monte Cazazza (often collaborating with Factrix and Survival Research Labs/SRL) began working with harsh atonal noise. Boyd Rice (aka NON) released several more albums of noise music, with guitar drones and tape loops creating a cacophony of repetitive sounds. In Germany, Einstürzende Neubauten were performing daring acts, mixing metal percussion, guitars and unconventional "instruments" (such as jackhammers) in elaborate stage performances that often damaged the venues they were playing.


New Wave and electronic body music

In the early 1980s, advances in sampling technology and the popularity of synthesised new wave music bought some industrial musicians greater exposure. As much as some New Wave bands were informed by the experiments of the industrial bands, the original industrial groups also began to refine their sound. Cabaret Voltaire and Throbbing Gristle experimented with dance beats, and the Cab's (as they were known by fans) album The Crackdown was released on Virgin Records to some success.

These dancefloor-friendly releases began to have a far-reaching influence, and acts such as Front 242 began to refine the industrial sound to a synth-oriented structure, with great success. By 1983, Front 242 had become Belgium's most popular band, although they had released only one album. They released a second album later that year, and introduced the term electronic body music (commonly referred to as EBM or body music) to describe themselves, as industrial music was still considered by many to refer to the artists on the Industrial Records roster.


Musicology

Speaking very generally, modern industrial usually involves sequenced electronics, making heavy use of FM & digital synths. It is characterized by a deadened snare drum sample and a heavy bass drum sample to a rock or techno beat. Vocals are often distorted and can feature "tortured" lyrics. The auto-arpeggiate feature of modern synthesizers is used often, to create complex sounding multiple simultaneous arpeggiations from multiple synthesizers which are synchronized with drum machines via MIDI. Reliance on heavy distortion pioneered by heavy metal also typifies the genre. Contemporary industrial music is often club-oriented. An element common to early industrial is sometimes known as the "left hand right hand" mistake. Much of the genre's early work was written using step sequencers, which often resulted in the bass and snare drum loaded onto one track, precluding them from being played at the same time. This creates a sound which gives the impression a drummer is holding two drum sticks, and is hitting a drum with his left hand, and then another with his right hand.

It should be mentioned that there is much disagreement within the industrial scene as to the current state of industrial, to the extent that some (including artists mentioned on this page) are of the belief that there is no "current state of industrial", and that industrial music ended with the demise of Throbbing Gristle and Industrial Records. Thus, the subgenre outlines that follow are by no means definitive, and indeed are often a point of contention between fans of the music.


First wave (70s to 80s - Industrial Records)

Industrial began as an intellectual movement to challenge the idea of what music can be. The first wave of industrial musicians began performing in the mid-seventies. There are still a number of artists who create music in a fashion very similar to the original philosophies of Industrial Records. These genres all stem directly from industrial.
20 Jazz Funk Greats by Throbbing Gristle


Avant-Garde / experimental

Popularized by Industrial Records, this sound first defined the term "industrial", but bears very little resemblance to what most people consider to be industrial music. By modern standards, most of this would better be described as "experimental noise". Featuring tape loops, cut-ups, vocal and instrumental experimentation, this first incarnation of industrial music would be considered very difficult listening for many of those familiar with modern industrial, but was widely considered to be the defining sound of industrial in the 70s.

Artists: Throbbing Gristle, Einstürzende Neubauten, Factrix, William S. Burroughs
Labels: Industrial Records



Noise / shock

This branch of Industrial focused more an brutal, ear shattering, noise, much of it was for shock value, it was and continues to be a huge influence on modern interpretations of Noise music, as well as Industrial music in general.

Artists: Boyd Rice, Monte Cazazza, Nurse With Wound



Electronic / dance

A form of Industrial that was more accessible, and more danceable, that came about in the early 1980s. Evolved alongside EBM. Many of the artists involved were originally practitioners of the classic industrial sound.

Artists: Cabaret Voltaire, SPK, Severed Heads

Second wave (80s to 90s - Wax Trax)
Tyranny >For You< by
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Tyranny >For You< by Front 242
EBM / industrial dance

Main article: Electronic body music



EBM (short for electronic body music; also commonly known as industrial dance): The term "EBM" was coined by Belgian act Front 242 in the eighties; it denotes a certain type of danceable electronic music. EBM beats are typically 4/4, often with some minor syncopation to suggest a "rock" rhythm. Heavy synths are usually prominent, and the vocals are often militaristic. This style was widely considered to be the defining sound of industrial in the 80s. In recent years, however, there has been somewhat of a schism within the EBM scene, and it is now not uncommon to hear futurepop and synthpop artists referred to as EBM artists. For this reason, many EBM fans have begun to refer to this earlier style as old-school EBM.

Artists: Front 242, Bigod 20, Nitzer Ebb
Labels: Off Beat (Germany), Zoth Ommog (Belgium), Pendragon (USA), Wax Trax (USA)

Too Dark Park by Skinny Puppy
Electro-industrial / elektro

Main article: Electronic body music



Electro-industrial (Now often called elektro, and not to be confused with electro) is largely a catch-all category that fills the space between power noise, EBM, old-style industrial, and gothic music. The main forerunner for these acts is the legendary eighties Canadian band Skinny Puppy, who used a variety of experimental production techniques to great success. Whereas EBM was generally straightforward in structure and production, elektro became known for its deep, layered sound. Typically this is a darker form of EBM; however this can often refer to acts that combine EBM with another subgenre (for example Feindflug, who combine EBM with power noise). Within North America, this style was widely considered to be the defining sound of industrial in the mid to late 1990s.

Artists: Skinny Puppy, Numb, Wumpscut, Front Line Assembly, Haujobb
Labels: Off Beat (Germany), Zoth Ommog (Belgium), 21st Circuitry (USA), Pendragon (USA), Metropolis (USA).

Sample of "Spasmolytic" by Skinny Puppy
Sample of "No Time" by Numb



The Mind is a Terrible Thing to Taste by Ministry
Aggro-industrial

Main article: Heavy Metal

With its roots in American rock music, aggro-industrial (Often simply called aggro) fused punk-rock sensibilities with techno-industrial brutality. Known for their live performances, studio releases by these acts often employed rotating and shared lineups due to the frequency of improv and jam sessions. Much of this style's musical output was very agressive, with confrontational lyrics and samples. This aesthetic was furthered by the larger-than-life stage presence of many acts, which often involved costumes, pyrotechnics, elaborate sets, and horror-inspired makeup. This style was widely considered to be the defining sound of industrial in the early 1990s.

Artists: Ministry, My Life with the Thrill Kill Kult, Pigface, Cubanate, KMFDM
Labels: Wax Trax! (USA), Invisible Records (USA).



Burn Out at the Hydrogen Bar by
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Burn Out at the Hydrogen Bar by Chemlab
Coldwave

Main article: Heavy Metal

Coldwave has its roots in industrial metal acts like the Young Gods and Ministry, and exploded on the American scene in the mid-1990s. Albums like Chemlab's Burn Out at the Hydrogen Bar exemplified the typical coldwave sound: rock-like guitars with prominent synthesizer accompaniment, and live or sampled drums. Lyrical content varies, but is typically cyberpunk-oriented in some fashion, often with pop sensibilities. Coldwave record labels had a notoriously short lifespan.

Artists: Chemlab, 16 Volt, Hate Dept.,
Labels: Re-Constriction Records (USA), Fifth Colvmn Records (USA). If It Moves (USA).

Power electronics

Main article: Noise music

Power electronics was originally related to the early industrial records scene but later became more identified with the noise music scene. It largely consists of screeching waves of feedback, analogue synthesizers making sub-bass pulses or high frequency squealing sounds, and screamed, distorted, often hateful and offensive lyrics. Deeply atonal, there are no "notes" or conventional rhythms in power electronics.

Artists: Whitehouse, The New Blockaders, Sutcliffe Jugend
Labels: Come Organisation (UK), Broken Seal (Germany), Alien8 Recordings (Canada)



Death industrial

Death industrial can be described as having much of the same source sounds as power electronics, but used to create a deep atmospheric sound with some thematic similarity to doom or death metal. Often features a more flowing rhythm and deeper, less abrasive sound than power electronics. The Grey Wolves are credited for pioneering the style, but many the concepts of death industrial were first seen in NON.

Artists: The Grey Wolves, Brighter Death Now, Atrax Morgue
Labels: Cold Meat Industry (Sweden), Slaughter Productions (Italy)



Dark industrial

Dark industrial is the marriage of dark ambient and industrial. Much like dark ambient, the style is a minimalist soundscape. What separates dark ambient from dark industrial is the harshness. The droning and distorted samples of dark ambient are replaced by waves of static and eerie melodies.

Artists: Gruntsplatter, Innana, Keimverbreitung
Labels: Malignant Records (USA), Cold Meat Industry (Sweden), Cold Spring (UK)



The Downward Spiral by Nine Inch Nails
Industrial rock

Main article: Alternative Rock

While not considered industrial music by today's standards due to perceived commercial and pop influences, industrial rock acts were once commonplace within industrial magazines, on industrial music compliations, and as opening acts at industrial concerts. Today, however, referring to these acts as "industrial" may be met with hostility from some in the industrial scene.

Artists: Nine Inch Nails, Gravity Kills, Econoline Crush, Stabbing Westward
Labels: Nothing Records (USA)



Third wave (90s to 00s - Ant-Zen)

Perhaps as a reaction to the band and rock-oriented feel of the mid-nineties, industrial music made a radical shift towards computer-generated, one-person acts. Eschewing the explosive stage shows that were commonplace, many performances now consist of a single artist on stage, surrounded by computers and electronic music equipment. The structure itself is opening itself up to even further experimentation, with modern equipment making a number of previously unattainable effects and techniques fair game for anyone with enough computer savvy and patience.


Viva 6581 by Tarmvred
Industrial techno

Industrial techno is a jarring cross between power noise, traditional industrial, and techno. It often resembles house music in structure, while keeping the harsh sounds, noises, and fast pacing of industrial music. Although guitars are not uncommon, lyrics and a verse-chorus-verse structure are very rare.

Artists: Pow[d]er Pussy, Punch Inc., Mimetic, Tarmvred
Labels: Ant-Zen (Germany), M-Tronic (France), Ad Noiseam



Nord by
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Nord by Imminent Starvation
Power Noise

Power Noise (also known as rhythmic noise) takes its inspiration from some of the more structured and distorted early industrial acts, such as Esplendor Geométrico. There are also certain techno and technoid influences. The term "power noise" was originally coined by Raoul Roucka, who records as Noisex. Typically, power noise involves heavily distorted militant beats, harsh noise, and is usually instrumental. Sometimes a melodic component is added, but this is almost always secondary to the rhythm. Power noise tracks are typically structured and danceable, but are known to be occasionally abstract. This genre is showcased at the annual Maschinenfest festival in Aachen, Germany as well as InFest Festival in Bradford, UK.

Artists: Winterkälte, Imminent Starvation, Converter, 5f_55. Haus Arafna
Labels: Ant-Zen (Germany), Hands Productions (Germany)

Sample of "Tentack One" by Imminent Starvation
Sample of "Death Time" by Converter



Formless by Gridlock
Technoid

Technoid acts take equal parts inspiration from the noise scene and IDM music. The end result is usually diverse IDM-influenced rhythms with varying levels of noise and industrial influence. Artists will often use non-conventional sounds within their music, such as field recordings of natural phenomena, dated 8-bit electronic equipment, or samples from artists of a wildly different genre. It is not uncommon for two albums by the same artist to have drastically different sounds and structures, resulting in a number of acts that have evolved a great distance from where they were only years ago. German label Hymen Records is largely responsible for the term and the style.

Artists: Gridlock, Black Lung, Somatic Responses, Xingu Hill
Labels: Hymen (Germany), Mirex (Germany), <UNIT> (USA)



Drum n noise

Drum n noise Combines elements of breakcore, IDM, Industrial, hardcore techno and power noise, often with a fairly free structure somewhere between IDM and noise music. The term was coined by the act Winterkälte when it was used as the name for one of their albums.

Artists: Enduser, Hecate, Tuareg Geeks
Labels: Mirex



Summary

As of 2004 there was a considerable amount genre-crossover and confusion taking place within industrial music. There are several high-profile artists whose early albums could arguably be classified as industrial (such as Covenant's first album 1994's, Dreams of a Cryotank, or the first VNV Nation album, 1995's Advance and Follow), but who have since worked almost exclusively in the futurepop or synthpop genres. Conversely, there are a popular number of artists from other genres who are releasing work that sounds like modern industrial music, but without any participation or work with industrial musicians, labels, or media. The Speedy J album A Shocking Hobby is a good example of this -- it comes from the IDM scene, but would fit perfectly as a release on a rhythmic noise label. As a result, the genre is becoming increasingly influenced by artists working in other genres. This may be seen as a benefit, as it has exposed industrial music to a larger audience, but some have countered that this popularity is also causing the genre to become "watered down", due to techno and futurepop artists getting increased consideration in industrial clubs and on industrial labels.

Part of the seemingly myriad sub genres of industrial music are caused by the tendancy of fans of a particular industrial artist or group of artists to continue to follow those artists even if they begin working in a completely different genre. This change in style is often described as a sub-genre of industrial, even though in content it might be more similar to other genres of music. For example, the genre of apocalyptic folk was essentially created when a few industrial artists started to make folk music. Almost all of the fans of these artists are industrial music fans, as opposed to folk music fans. This phenomenon continues to shape the label of industrial music.

Ahí tienes menciones al punk, alusiones a cómo mucho de lo que hoy es llamado industrial realmente poco o nada tiene que ver con la auténtica música industrial y un huevo de cosas más que he estado diciendo yo sin haberme leído este artículo en la puta vida, simplemente dice lo mismo que yo PORQUE ES LO QUE HAY, PESAOS.

De paso decir que el disco que destacan de Ministry en el apartado "aggro" es "The Mind Is A Terrible Thing To taste", no el "Psalm" ni los últimos, pero obviamente el pavo que escribió todo ese rollo no tiene ni zorra (es posible que hasta digáis que lo he escrito yo ). De todas formas yo diría que el "The Land Of Rape And Honey" es más importante que el "TMIATTTT", aunque éste profundizó más en el rollo guitarrero y quizás por ello es más mencionado a la hora de hablar de la fusión del rock y la música industrial.

Y no te he puesto la Wikipedia diréctamente para que no me salgáis con lo de "mucha wikipedia", porque todo lo que sé como ya he dicho antes lo sé desde hace más de 10 años y yo no tengo internet hasta hace unos 3, pero incluso aunque lo supiese todo por wikipedia ya sé más que cualquiera de este foro incluyéndoos a vosotros.

Y sí, aparte llevo siglos comprando revistas y libros tanto españolas/es como extranjeras/os y tengo mil discos desde hace siglos como he dicho mil veces ya, y es de todo eso de donde saco mis "fuentes", y como no tengo un escáner ni ganas de ponerme a buscar información que puedo haberme leído hace 8 ó 9 años de entre los millones de cosas que tengo tiradas por mi habitación y el resto de mi casa, pues u os creéis lo que digo porque soy más inteligente y sabio que vosotros y que cualquier bloguero hispanohablante industrialero megacutre que uséis como "fuentes" (que yo en estos 3 años que llevo con internet he visto mil y son todos malos de cojones) u os lo buscáis por internet para comprobar que no me invento absolútamente nada.

Aparte llevo ya bastante tiempo en este foro y creo haber demostrado de sobras que cuando hablo de algo sé perféctamente de lo que estoy hablando y que no me invento nada porque no me hace falta, cualquiera que pierda el tiempo leyéndose mis ladrillacos lo sabe (que alguno habrá ).

Pero ya que estamos os dejo lo de Wikipedia también por si alguien se aburre:

http://www.wordiq.com/definition/Industrial_music

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post-industrial_music

¿Ves Cromo cómo diferencian entre industrial y post-industrial tal y como dije y que el rock y el metal industrial lo meten dentro del post-industrial? ¿Me lo invento todo y mis fuentes son una mierda? Y hasta ahora mismo nunca había visto lo que ponía Wikipedia, de hecho ni tan siquiera me lo he leído ahora, pero al mirar en Google y mencionarme el Fake-Reznor un par de veces la Wikipedia me ha dado por mirarlo por encima y he visto que hacen la división entre industrial y post-industrial cuando pensé que todo iba a estar metido en el mismo saco.

Y aquí te dejo un tochazo gordo de uno que como tú flipa con todo el rollo ciberpunk y demás y le ha dado por soltar unos ladrillacos (con mucha paja mental, todo sea dicho) que sólo me he leído por encima pero que creo que sirve para ver que lo de la relación punk-industrial puede ir más allá de los datos históricos y las similitudes ideológicas, estilísticas y musicales:

http://project.cyberpunk.ru/idb/mutated ... _punk.html

The Mutated Child of Punk

Jason Lawrence Fulghum
JLF@cc.gatech.edu

Industrial subculture was born as a mutated and futuristic form of punk style. It has inherited many aspects of punk style, but has also updated them to be more modern and futuristic. Every aspect of both subcultures converges to one main point: chaos, and both subcultures find their greatest joy in flaunting that chaos and lack of control. Punk represents this chaos in the near past and industrial subculture is a continuation of that chaos in the future. It is a future that we are on the verge of discovering, but at the same time remains dark and foreboding. It is a future that is filled with an excess of technology and a lack of morals. It is a future where machines have more communication between each other than human beings do. Each aspect of each culture illustrates this connection in a unique way, but fashion and music stand out as particularly strong areas for semiotic analysis of the various signs that characterize and typify each group

Hebdige says that through semiotics, everything a person wears, does, says, etc., can be viewed as a sign, and that all of those signs together can be analyzed to obtain an accurate representation of who a person is and why they portray themselves the way that they do. Of the conscious and subconscious choices made everyday, Hebdige says that the total effect "gives itself to be read" (101). Hebdige's basic idea is that through the use of semiotics we can recognize these signs and evaluate what they mean. For punk and industrial subculture, it is a very conscious choice of dissension. Before we can understand that choice of dissension, we must first exam and define society's norms. Hebdige says that society's norms "are distinguished by their relative invisibility, their appropriateness, their naturalness'" (101). The norms in society are what we fail to notice everyday because of their invisibility.' It is both because of their appropriateness' and their naturalness' that when we are surrounded by the poster children of Gap and Abercrombie and Fitch we dismiss them without so much as a second glance. Society's norms are represented in those poster children, and punk and industrial subcultures consciously chose not to be a part of that stereotype.

Punk music is characterized by screeching vocals, distorted instruments, and explicit use of foul language. Punk used this wide variety of crashing and destruction to create a surreal effect that emphasizes different elements of chaos. Hebdige describes punk musical style as "relentless (un)melodic lines against a turbulent background of cacophonous drumming and screamed vocals" (109). Describing punk music, Johnny Rotten said, "We're into chaos not music" (109). There is a certain anger and angst that goes side by side with punk music which, according to Hebdige, "reflected the tendency towards willful desecration and the voluntary assumption of outcast status" (110). Punks were proud to be who they were. They were proud to be viewed as outcasts in society, partly because of what that society represented to them, and perhaps partly because of the attention that it brought to them. Punks were trapped in a society that they wanted no part of. They had no desire to belong to a world ruled by hypocrisy and janus faced politics. They escaped through their music. The Sex Pistols, the Clash, the Unwanted, and hundreds of others were their saviors.

Industrial subculture is entirely synonymous. Many of the same elements can be seen in industrial music as in punk music. The most obvious of these is the anger. Anger and dissatisfaction are two key elements in much of industrial music. The actual rhythms in industrial musical style, like punk, tend to be loud, and fast. Another interesting component of both punk and industrial music is the use of abnormal sounds to create surreal effects. For instance, both punk and industrial style bring in elements to their music that contemporary styles would not. Industrial music in particular makes use of an extreme amount of sampled audio. Industrial music samples everything from screaming to audio taken from science fiction and cult movies to gunshots resulting in a more surreal atmosphere. This surreal effect also creates a certain kind of chaos that is on par with the chaos created by the punk style of music. Industrial music's strong focus on sampled audio is another reminder of the subculture's strong ties with a disjoined, technological future.

Just as the actual mechanics of the industrial musical style strongly emphasize chaos and disorder the lyrics emphasize this same chaos and disorder to an even greater extent. In his industrial anthem, Capital Punishment, famous industrial musician Rudy Ratzinger rasps "Capital punishment for me, capital punishment for I have sinned. Capital punishment for me, capital punishment for I was wrong." He expresses a certain willingness to be punished, because he is fully aware of what he has done. He is aware of the rules that he has broken and he is similarly aware of their resulting consequences. Rudy admits that he "has sinned" and is very proud of it. He is proud of his actions and faces his punishment as if it were an honor. Industrial subculture and punk subculture have certainly both broken many rules, and have been forced to face many consequences of those broken rules. The members of industrial and punk subculture have treated their punishment just like Rudy. They know that they must face their punishment for the "sins" that they have committed, and they face it proud of what they have done.

Punk fashion similarly emphasizes chaos. Mismatched plaids and ripped school uniforms are commonplace. Hebdige reports "lavatory chains were draped in graceful arcs across chests encased in plastic bin-liners" (107). Punk subculture stole what society as a whole deemed to be void of meaning and filled that void with their chaos. They empowered themselves with a certain feeling of control by being able to take what was not theirs and turn it into something that was distinctly their own. They replaced an emptiness of value with their twisted views of society and anger, and after they had stolen those symbols they proudly flaunted them by covering their bodies with them and parading them around in a living protest of society's norms.

Punk fashion also demonstrates a strong tendency towards fetishism. From bondage pants, clothing adorned with used condoms, to rusty medals of masochism pinned through eyebrows and lips, punk fetish fashion was anything but vanilla sex. Hebdige says:

Rapist masks and rubber wear, leather bodices and fishnet stockings, implausibly pointed stiletto heeled shoes, the whole paraphernalia of bondage the belts, straps and chains were exhumed from the boudoir, closet and the pornographic film and placed on the street where they retained their forbidden connotations.

The recurring theme of chaos is not absent from this fashion statement. Punk fashion took what society was not willing to talk about and shoved it in society's face. They forced society to rethink and reevaluate their moral stances by forcing people to feel awkward and embarrassed.

Industrial fashion is a reflection of the punk style but twisted to the same darker more futuristic time frame that is the basic characteristic of industrial subculture. The same chaos is clearly evident in the small pale faces and tattered black clothes of the industrial subculture. The carefully applied black and blood red shades of lipstick as well as the massive amounts of black eyeliner running circles around blood shot eyes are all semiotic signs of a desire to stand out from the norm by being more dangerous and more chaotic and out of control than society's standards. When society said, "less is more", punk and industrial turned around and said, "no, more is more." Common practice in many subcultures is the achievement of power through the ability to alter and modify an individual's appearance, and industrial and punk subcultures are no exceptions.

However industrial subculture has taken the punk's fetishism to an even more extreme level. Eighteen inch black vinyl corsets and tight black chokers, thigh-high vinyl boots and clothing adorned with hypodermic needles, ritual body scarification and tattoo, all flaunt the chaos of the industrial subculture. They all show how out of control each member is, and how each member takes pride in that lack of control. In a sense, the chaos comes from giving in to desires that society has frowned upon and forced to be repressed. Fetish fashion, whether punk or industrial, allows the wearer to transcend those societal boundaries and become the antithesis of society's accepted values and norms. It is the ultimate revolt from society's conformist poster children wrapped in Gap and Hilfiger.

What is the future of this mutated child of punk? Today, the punk movement is still alive after several decades of major changes in the world. Will the industrial subculture prove to be as durable, or will the parent outlive the child? What will the children of industrial subculture be like? If examining industrial subculture as a futuristic child of punk subculture has revealed anything at all, it has revealed how strong the thread of chaos is. It weaves itself through out both industrial and punk music, fashion, fetishism, dancing, and countless other aspects of subculture, and ultimately is the bond that brings them all together and unifies them. If one thing is certain it is that the future will undoubtedly be a future that is tightly tied together by the interweaving threads of chaos.

Lo siento, pero paso de traducirlo. Y ya te aviso que el google translator te dará como resultado un desastre total como siempre, que también creo que una de las razones por las que sé más cosas que tú pese a que tú seas más viejuno es que yo el inglés lo controlo bastante y la mayor parte de la peña que controla más de este tipo de música (y yo diría que de todas) suelen ser angloparlantes y la mejor información sobre casi todo se suele encontrar en inglés (sólo hay que ver la diferencia entre la mayor parte de los artículos de la Wikipedia en inglés y los artículos normalmente penosos en español), lo mismo que la peña en foros yankis/internacionales suele controlar mucho más de diferentes géneros (por aquí hay gente que sabe de algunas cosas pero no tiene ni idea de otras y muchas veces veo un nivel de desconocimiento bestial sobre ciertas cosas, como en todas partes hay de todo pero he de decir que en foros yankis encuentro a más peña que controla más de música o de lo que sea que un mismo servidor, aunque tampoco mucha ).

¿Realmente con un corta y pega aleatorio de lo primero que te ha salido en google me vas a convencer? Pues estas arreglao.

¿Realmente con un corta y pega aleatorio de lo primero que te ha salido en google me vas a convencer? Pues estas arreglao.

No hombre, estaba pensando en contratar a Reznor o a Jourgensen para que te lo explicasen todo despacito, pero me han dicho que 20 euros les parece muy poco.

Mira, tu quedate con tus doctorados y licenciaturas en música, que yo seguiré sacando la información de esos pateticos blogs hispanos (no se de donde has sacado eso, pero si tu lo dices seguro que es verdad) y seguiré disfrutando de toda la música que yo considere Industrial o no, que macho ya aburres hasta a las gallinas, te lo vuelvo a repetir, que con tanto pelo te debe de costar que te entre, no por poner lo mismo cuarenta veces en diez idiomas va a ser mas verdad. Pero bueno si eso resuelve algún trauma infantil que hayas tenido, que seas feliz.

Hombre, supongo que son blogs o webs en español por la simple razón de que no sabes inglés (o chino), si ahora resulta que conoces otros 20 idiomas y no me lo has dicho entonces nada.

Y no es "lo que yo digo 40 veces", es lo que dicen todas las fuentes que puedas encontrar en internet o en cualquier parte, si no es así muéstrame otras "fuentes" que digan que algo de lo que yo he escrito o de lo que he citado es falso o incorrecto, que dudo que lo encuentres.

Y no te cabrees.

Cuando quieres curar un caballo le preguntas a un veterinario, no haces una encuesta pública. Con la música pasa lo mismo, los cuatrocientos millones de fuentes interneteras me las paso por el forro.

Cabrearme ya no, ahora solo me produces hilaridad . Llanero no deberías de hacer eso, que si son las fuentes consultadas por la "eminencia", son 100% fiables.