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Dorian_Gray

Estrella del Rock

268

19 Mar, 2011

Madrid

"No Money,.." [o como funciona de verdad la escena en USA]

por Dorian_Gray » Sab Abr 21, 2012 1:56 pm

¡Buenas!

Estaba echándole un ojo a la web de la Alternative Press y me encontré este reportaje sobre como funciona el tema de los tours en relación a la pasta, y por qué gente como el de Thursday tiene que tener un trabajo a parte de ser músico, y como otras bandas lo van a dejar por no poder mantenerlo.

Por desgracia, en perfecto inglés:

Recently, ACE ENDERS announced that due to financial constraints, he would likely not be able to continue touring, and the album he’s working on now may very well be his last. Since Enders revealed this, he’s received a massive outpouring of support. Fans have sold T-shirts and wristbands to benefit Enders, his wife and young child. Supporters have solicited donations to help the musician continue being, well, a musician. The response has not been entirely positive, however. Some people think that if you’re a famous musician (or at least relatively well-known) you shouldn’t need or accept financial support. The circling question seems to be: If musicians sell records and merch and get paid for playing shows, why don’t they have any money?

The idea that musicians—even well-known musicians who sell out large club shows—have money is a misconception for the most part. Financial concerns and viability obviously vary from artist to artist; no two musicians are exactly the same when it comes to money and how it’s made and spent. But what most fans fail to realize is how much it costs to be a musician and how much more it costs to be a musician on the road.

THURSDAY vocalist GEOFF RICKLY is fully willing to admit that his personal income last year was less than $10,000. Rickly spent months of 2010 working a retail job in Brooklyn to make ends meet; and thanks partly to living in New York City, he hasn’t owned a car in seven years. If that surprises you, you’re not alone. “I saw something online once that said, ‘Oh those Thursday guys don’t care, they’re driving their fancy cars and living in their big houses,’” Rickly says. “I thought that was so funny. In our biggest year, when we were all over the radio and on TV, I made less than anyone with a desk job makes. It’s a weird misconception. But I remember when I was a kid, I saw Snapcase; and they were the biggest hardcore band I’d ever seen at the time. They had a thousand kids piling on the stage, everyone was buying T-shirts and I thought, ‘These guys must be loaded!’ I think about [that now], and it’s really funny.”

While your assumption that someone like Lady Gaga is probably not hurting for funds is likely correct, the truth is that most of your favorite bands struggle, even at their peak. MIKE MURPHY, bassist for HASTE THE DAY—who recently announced they’re calling it quits after a two-month farewell tour this spring—describes his band’s early years as very difficult. “We toured our first year or so playing venues to five kids,” Murphy says. “We played one show to nobody, literally. We used to take band money and buy peanut butter and jelly. We survived for a long time on Ramen noodles. You buy a big thing of Ramen, go into a gas station, use hot water from their coffee maker and put it in a Styrofoam cup. Sometimes they charge you 89 cents for the cup. That was a big deal back then, so you tried not to get charged 89 cents or you bring your own cup. It’s hard to get paid when no one comes to your shows when you’re a band starting out. But we got lucky and got support later.”

Although Murphy says money is only a small factor in Haste The Day’s breakup, it’s hard to imagine wanting to spend more than a few months of your life living on that kind of diet. But it seems like every band has stories like Murphy’s, some more recent in their careers than others. THE SWELLERS’ guitarist/singer NICK DIENER describes a time when the band slept on a “concealed shelf in the middle of a 24-hour Walmart just to avoid getting a hotel.” His bandmate and drummer JONATHAN DIENER adds, “Our first few years of tours, I would eat at Taco Bell twice a day and only spend one dollar on a bean burrito, then try to eat protein bars to hold me over until the next day. We would go to places like Cici's Pizza Buffet and eat 10 plates of food for $5 because we thought it was a good deal.”

Almost every touring band advocates the dollar menu at McDonald’s, and JONATHAN DEVOTO, frontman of BIRD BY BIRD and formerly of THE MATCHES says, “I've definitely gotten food poisoning on multiple occasions from eating food that was a little past its expiration point. It's incredibly difficult to justify throwing away perfectly good food—rotten, mind you—when you only have $2 left in your wallet.”

So why is everyone so broke and living off rotten food? Aren’t fans spending their hard-earned money to buy these artists’ CDs, T-shirts and concert tickets? Where does that money go? Let’s break down each piece of that puzzle, bearing in mind that there are exceptions to every rule and each artist does things slightly differently.

First: CDs. What happens if you hop over to Best Buy and pick up a new record by your favorite band? Say you pay $10 for the album. Depending on whether the band are signed, what sort of label they’re signed to and what kind of distribution deal that label has, the store will likely keep about $5. The remaining half goes to the record label. If the band are signed, the label uses that “profit” to pay back the money that was used to make the record—both creatively (including costs for producers, studio time and equipment) and constructively (album packaging, distribution costs, etc.). In the end, the band probably will not see any of that money you spent minus a small portion for mechanical royalties.

If you buy the CD from the band’s merch table at a show, they’ve probably already bought that box of their own album from the record label at a wholesale cost. If they’re lucky, they may earn a few bucks on each one. “It's even hard to sell CDs at shows now because they cost so much for the band to even get them wholesale,” says THIS IS HELL guitarist RICK JIMINEZ. “For a while, it was a recurring thing to see $5 CDs at merch tables, but most labels charge their bands at least that much just to sell them.”

Second: T-shirts and other merch. This too can vary, but as Rickly says, “For some reason, that’s the piece of the industry that bands control the biggest piece of.” But merch still incurs costs. Rickly explains if there’s a Thursday shirt on sale for $15, the band end up with $4 or $5 profit. The venue takes about 20 percent, depending on its size and policies. It costs $3 to $4 to make a shirt, depending on which brand the band use; and a band’s merch company takes about 20 percent. Still, as Rickly puts it, “I can say without a doubt that if you want to put money in a band’s pocket, buy a T-shirt [at a show].”

Jonathan Diener agrees. “Ordering merch before a tour is one of the biggest hits you'll take, depending on the size of the shows.” Devoto adds, “I suppose the two best ways to make money are creative merch items that people actually want, combined with endless badgering. Talk to every person in the crowd and trick them into buying your merch. No shame.”

But what about ticket sales? You might pay up to $40 to go to some shows, so why should you have to buy a shirt to make sure your favorite artist has enough gas to make it to the next city? Again, the income has to measure up to the costs. Enders describes the impetus for his recent decision as a struggle to survive on the road. “It’s become really hard to survive as a musician or any type of artist, because the funding is not there,” he says. “I can’t afford to do it, is what it comes down to. It takes a toll on everybody—my family, friends, my connections to people over the years have diminished.” Because touring costs so much money, Enders, who is currently unsigned, says, “You come away from a tour mostly hoping to break even, for an artist like myself. If you break even, that’s a successful tour.”

To put it in perspective, just look at what an average mid-level band have to pay for on tour: booking agents, managers, lawyers, business managers or accountants, buying or renting a van or tour bus, buying or renting a trailer, fuel, vehicle repairs, driver (if on a bus), hotel rooms, hotel rooms during the day for the tour bus driver, vehicle insurance, tolls, food, guitar picks, drum sticks, drum heads, instrument repairs, touring crew members, per diems for the band and crew members, merchandise, lighting, onstage production, wardrobe, taxes and, in some cases, medical bills.

Most bands set their per diem (which is basically an allowance everyone on tour gets each day to make sure they can eat) at $10, although some newer bands get $5 per day and some larger bands get more. Bands also have to pay taxes in every state they perform. Rickly explains that about 50 percent of a total tour profit is withheld to pay taxes, which he supports because Thursday rely on the roads to get from city to city and the local fire and police departments to be available if an emergency arises at a show.

SHERRI DuPREE BEMIS, vocalist/guitarist of EISLEY, says, “At this stage for Eisley, headlining tours mean we will get paid a little something at the end of the day, and support tours mean we only cover our costs of touring. A few years ago, labels could usually afford some form of tour support for bands, which basically is a loan of sorts. But now that album sale revenue has kind of dried up, it makes it harder to do that.” Her solution—and that of her husband, Say Anything’s Max Bemis—is to find creative ways to make money as an artist, which is similar to what Devoto mentioned about making innovative band merch. (Remember when the Matches sold homemade soap during the 2008 AP Tour?)

“[We] are always coming up with ways to make extra income to pay bills and make house payments when we're not on tour,” DuPree Bemis says. “[Max] created something called 'Song Shop' and has been writing and selling custom songs for fans about anything they want or are going through for the last couple of years, and the revenue that has generated has been really helpful. Plus it's fulfilling as an artist to always be creating. Likewise, I’m an artist and I design custom artwork and tattoos for people, or make, sign and sell my own prints when I'm at home. We wouldn't be able to keep doing these things if it weren't for our fans, though. They are everything, and you can't ever take them for granted in this career. Without someone to create for, you can't create.”

Which brings us back to Enders. A month ago, he says, he was ready to quit, walk away and join the real world. But the outpouring of support from his fans, from whom he never asked for donations or help, has now caused Enders to reconsider his options. He and his wife Jenn, who has also been very vocal about their family’s situation on her blog, are using the donated funds to start an internship program of sorts. Enders hopes to create a community of music fans who can help spread the idea that music is about commonality not trends. They hope it will help produce art and music events in their towns or at their colleges. It’s slightly unclear exactly how the program will work, but Enders is passionate about reviving a love for music not based on commodity.

“I lost that feeling for so long because I got so consumed by the business of trying to survive,” he says. “I didn’t realize that people still look at my music like that. It opened my eyes. So a month ago I would have said, ‘I wash my hands of it; I had a good run.’ But seeing how everyone made shirts and wristbands for donations and sent the donation money to us, the plan now is to go back to that grassroots feel of music. Basically, what we’re going to try and do is this intern program where we interview people and make a group of people—not like a street team, but a community of people to help put the idea back in people’s head that music is more than a fad that’s ‘in’ right now. It’s taking away the barrier between artist and supporter.”

Enders also says his statement that his next album could be his last might not actually be true anymore. “I don’t want anyone to read too much into that,” he says. “If I make this record and it allows me to make another, then great. If not, I have to sit there and decide what I need to do to support my family.”

Why create music if it’s not a reliable means of supporting oneself or one’s family? Unfortunately, money makes the world go ’round and money and art have been forced into a tenuous, sometimes needy relationship. “Not to reduce the music industry down to money, but that’s how artists make their living and what makes it possible for them to be able to create,” Murphy says. “Money allows the artist to concentrate on their art so they don’t have to go home and get a job. So that money that you support them with really makes a huge difference in them being able to communicate their art with you more effectively.”

Bottom line: If you want to help a band, see them in concert and buy a T-shirt at their show. Consider buying a physical album instead of downloading it, and purchase it directly from the band instead of a mass retailer. And next time you call a band a “sellout,” it’s worth considering why they agreed to license a song to a commercial hocking beer or clothing. “If you can put your music in a car commercial, put it in the car commercial,” Rickly says. “I have so many friends that are in underground punk bands that never, ever do commercials. They’re viewed as these Holy Grail bands that never sell out—and their day job is writing jingles for commercials. It’s the same thing. People can call us sellouts all they want. I just wish we could sell out more. I’d have more free time to write music.”


Fuente: http://www.altpress.com/features/entry/no_money_mo_problems/

La verdad es que yo siempre pensaba que a las bandas de ese calibre [Thursday, Haste The Day...] les iba muy bien, siempre girando, siendo un referente para muchas otras... pero viendo eso, lo cierto es que duele...
"Lo que yo sé, cualquiera lo puede saber; pero mi corazón lo tengo yo solo."
- Las penas del joven Werther, de Goethe
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ImAN

Gran Maestro

10208

2 Abr, 2004

Re: "No Money,.." [o como funciona de verdad la escena en USA]

por ImAN » Sab Abr 21, 2012 2:53 pm

Ahí hay cosas ciertas y cosas que no dicen. Para darle más dramatismo al artículo sólo han hablado de lo que es girar por Estados Unidos, que efectivamente es una mierda. Sí que la gasolina es muy barata, pero las distancias también son más largas. El negocio musical en eventos en USA limita al promotor a organizar el concierto en una sala, por lo que la banda debe buscarse la vida con el alojamiento y comida. Pero no hablan de LO MUCHO que a las bandas les gusta girar por Europa, además de porque con el Euro sacan más dólares, aquí el promotor tiene la obligación de proporcionar alojamiento (en caso que no vengan con nightliner) y comida.

Yo siempre he sido de defender que la música en directo, es un entretenimiento como el cine o el teatro y por lo tanto hay que pagarlo y esa gente debe comer. Pero de la misma manera que si yo no soy bueno en mi trabajo, me van a echar y van a buscar otra persona. Si eres una banda, que no gusta o no genera el público suficiente para pedir el dineral que piden muchas, lo siento, pero está mal. Bandas como NOFX o Lagwagon (que yo sepa, estoy seguro que grandes artistas de estadios que pueda traer LiveNation funciona igual), no vienen con un fijo, vienen a porcentaje, porque saben que genera público y su managment es bueno como para saber con qué promotores debe trabajar para que no le organicen un concierto de mierda.

Yo he visto venir a The First Step (banda de hardcore separada hace unos años) venir a Europa con la ropa que llevaban puesta y su equipaje ser sólo bolsas y bolsas de merch que vendieron TODO. Y si cada cami les ha costado $4 y la venden a 10 o 12€, do the math. Un amigo mío se fue de gira con Champion y cuando tocaron en el ya difunto Ninja Fest en Londres, vendieron solo en esa noche 5000 libras de merch. Está claro que si quieres, puedes minimizar gastos, pero es muy guay querer tener las comidades de una banda grande siendo una pequeña.

En general, creo que han dramatizado bastante el artículo.
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meneillos

Gran Maestro

17471

15 Abr, 2009

Re: "No Money,.." [o como funciona de verdad la escena en USA]

por meneillos » Sab Abr 21, 2012 4:03 pm

estremecedor el tema de la compra de sus propios cd's

y amazo, como siempre, el de Thursday

pero seguramente también Iman tenga parte de razón y esté dramatizado
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LlaneroSolitario

Dios del Rock

4018

12 Feb, 2007

Re: "No Money,.." [o como funciona de verdad la escena en USA]

por LlaneroSolitario » Sab Abr 21, 2012 7:50 pm

El articulo es un poco viejo ya. No voy a entrar a comentar si está dramatizado o no, solo comentar que aunque algo más viejo, los números que plantea Albini son muchísimo más deprimentes que este artículo:

Record company:
$ 710,000
Producer:
$ 90,000
Manager:
$ 51,000
Studio:
$ 52,500
Previous label:
$ 50,000
Agent:
$ 7,500
Lawyer:
$ 12,000

Band member net income each:
$ 4,031.25
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ImAN

Gran Maestro

10208

2 Abr, 2004

Re: "No Money,.." [o como funciona de verdad la escena en USA]

por ImAN » Dom Abr 22, 2012 12:18 am

Sigo haciendo énfasis en el echo que si eres una banda que no genera el dinero suficiente para cubrir gastos, busca una manera de economizar. Hay grupos que han sacado discazos sin gastarse $52000 metiéndose en el estudio. Si le has pagado $50000 a tu sello anterior, es porque has incumplido un contrato, no haber firmado un contrato con una major si eres una banda pequeña, porque sólo las bandas que generan dinero de verdad son las que van a ganar dinero en una major. Si te vas de gira, no te lleves backliners y afínate tú los instrumentos en vez de tocarte las pelotas desde que llegas a la sala hasta que sales al escenario. Métete en una furgo en vez de irte en autobús que vale 8 veces menos.

Tampoco es nada nuevo que los sellos se llevan casi o más del 50% de la venta del disco. Pero hay que tener dos cosas en cuenta:
1- A un grupo le conviene MUCHO tener un buen sello, por dos razones: Distribución y Promoción. Si tienes esas dos cosas, tienes garantizado ganar nuevo público, que es, a la larga, el que te va a dar de conocer. Así que es una inversión, una vez más, si lo vales.
2- Nos gusta mucho criticar a los sellos, pero no tenemos en cuenta que ellos tienen MUCHOS gastos a cubrir y al fin y al cabo, ellos también quieren ganar dinero para vivir.
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Rajamundis

Rockero Profesional

190

29 Dic, 2010

Re: "No Money,.." [o como funciona de verdad la escena en USA]

por Rajamundis » Dom Abr 22, 2012 12:26 am

Hombre, charlando con unos amigos de mi mujer, en los USA, tenían una banda en la que girando por su estado, Kentucky, y parte de escena de Ohio (Cincinnati etc.) les daba para un sueldo a media jornada, además de haberse pillado un bus escolar de segunda mano para ir por ahí. Solamente tenían un disco autoeditado.
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LlaneroSolitario

Dios del Rock

4018

12 Feb, 2007

Re: "No Money,.." [o como funciona de verdad la escena en USA]

por LlaneroSolitario » Dom Abr 22, 2012 12:29 am

Se me olvidó copiar el link. Leetelo porque da respuesta a muchas de las cosas que dices.

http://www.negativland.com/news/?page_id=17
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ImAN

Gran Maestro

10208

2 Abr, 2004

Re: "No Money,.." [o como funciona de verdad la escena en USA]

por ImAN » Dom Abr 22, 2012 3:54 am

Joder, es mega largo. Me lo he leído muy por encima, pero sigo diciendo lo mismo. Todo eso es culpa de la banda. Las compañías de teléfono también intentan venderte mierda y si picas lo consiguen. Tienes que ser listo y saber lo que firmas con un sello. Sigo diciendo que si la banda lo vale, merece la pena estar en un sello. Luego estan toda LA MIERDA de bandas que tiene Victory ahora, que no vale ni una un duro y se quejan que su sello no les paga. Pero como te van a pagar si haces una mierda que no quiere ver nadie? Y luego vas pidiendo unas sumas de subnormal cuando sales a tocar. Son bandas con un poco de hype cegadas por la fama que se dejan el alma pensando que porque han pegado un bombazo ya tienen la vida solucionada y luego les viene a morder por el culo.

Tenéis un claro ejemplo de un sello de puta madre justo aquí en España. Aloud, precios baratos con gastos de envío incluido que apuesta por bandas que en directo valen la pena y ahí es donde dan dinero. Que total, somos 4 subnormales los que seguimos comprando discos, eh?
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LlaneroSolitario

Dios del Rock

4018

12 Feb, 2007

Re: "No Money,.." [o como funciona de verdad la escena en USA]

por LlaneroSolitario » Dom Abr 22, 2012 12:46 pm

Claro que es culpa de la banda. Las discográficas y los sellos deberían morir, son un cáncer.
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Khaoz

Gran Maestro

9837

17 Mar, 2004

León

Re: "No Money,.." [o como funciona de verdad la escena en USA]

por Khaoz » Dom Abr 22, 2012 4:44 pm

Yo estoy bastante con Iman, uno tiene que saber gestionarse el grupo y no pretender ser una mega estrella sin dinero y capacidades para serlo.

Aquí con $52,000 te pillas el estudio el año entero para ti sólo y con un par de esclavos si te hacen falta xD

Por otro lado lo de los sellos hay que tomárselo como una inversión, pero no te lo puedes jugar todo a esa carta. Y sobre todo pensar que a ellos les interesa tanto como a ti el que te vaya bien, auqnue tú tengas que currar el triple...
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LlaneroSolitario

Dios del Rock

4018

12 Feb, 2007

Re: "No Money,.." [o como funciona de verdad la escena en USA]

por LlaneroSolitario » Dom Abr 22, 2012 5:29 pm

Si eso es más o menos lo que pensamos todos. Pero tú dile a una banda que se salga del redil y se empiecen a hacer todos ello en lugar de que se lo haga papá sello. En el papel es muy bonito pero la realidad es que la mayoría de las bandas no lo hace, y mucho menos las que se tratan en este foro.
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zegers

Gran Maestro

7853

6 Mar, 2004

Re: "No Money,.." [o como funciona de verdad la escena en USA]

por zegers » Dom Abr 22, 2012 7:04 pm

Está claro que no todos pueden salir beneficiados. Y otra cosa que no se comenta, a los fans de los grupos tampoco nos sobra la pasta para comprar CDs, ir a los conciertos (entrada + desplazamiento) y comprar merch todo a la vez.
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Khaoz

Gran Maestro

9837

17 Mar, 2004

León

Re: "No Money,.." [o como funciona de verdad la escena en USA]

por Khaoz » Lun Abr 23, 2012 1:03 am

Lo que sí que es cierto es que hay demasiados intermediarios que no aportan nada al producto final y ni siquiera hacen de filtro (caso de las tiendas), lo cual hace cada día más difícil su venta. Pero bueno, las dificultades hacen que sólo los mejores consigan mantenerse, y sólo los que de verdad trabajen salgan arriba. Yo lo veo desde el punto de vista de la banda y no sé, pero este año está siendo el que más conciertos tenemos, y es a raíz de habernos movido y trabajado, ya que todo nos lo hacemos nosotros.
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LlaneroSolitario

Dios del Rock

4018

12 Feb, 2007

Re: "No Money,.." [o como funciona de verdad la escena en USA]

por LlaneroSolitario » Lun Abr 23, 2012 1:05 am

Pero bueno, las dificultades hacen que sólo los mejores consigan mantenerse, y sólo los que de verdad trabajen salgan arriba


Ni de coña. Es cuestión de suerte, nada más.
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Khaoz

Gran Maestro

9837

17 Mar, 2004

León

Re: "No Money,.." [o como funciona de verdad la escena en USA]

por Khaoz » Lun Abr 23, 2012 1:40 am

No es todo suerte. El que pasa de todo al final se ve superado por la situación y no llega a nada. La suerte se tiene y se busca. Si te mueves es más fácil tener esa suerte de la que hablas. Otra cosa es llegar a ser una megabanda, ahí ya influyen demasaidas cosas. ¿Pero poder grabar discos y dar conciertos y crecer poco a poco como banda? Eso no es cuestión de suerte.
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